Because I can't stand it anymore: separate vs. seperate
I'm guilty of this one all the time...
Tom F. greets Tom F.
I say that we should stick with the "traditional" version, but still have the "new" and more commonly used version be acceptable.
The two meanings are so different that I think it is a good thing if the language evolves to handle it. "To separate" and things that are already "seperate" are very different and having this captured in the word is a "good thing" as Martha would say.
well...4 SepErate Ways is the name of my band. We spell it with an e. I think it's better with an e. Anyway, check us out on myspace!!!
Seperate is not a word "Martha"
Correct. Seperate is not a word.
M$ Word does not recognize it.
Spell does not recognize it.
http://www.dict.org does not recognize it.
Well, I suppose in a few years it won't matter anyway, whether it's separate or seperate. The world adds new words to the dictionary all the time. Granted it may not be in there now, but if a whole bunch of people just start spelling it that way and keep spelling it that way, then it'll be acknowledged as a different way of spelling separate.
Personally, I think it just depends on how you talk or where you come from. If you sound it out as "separate" when you talk, then that's how you probably spell it. If you sound it out as "seperate" when you talk, then that's how you're going to spell it.
Indeed, it has to be one of the most annoying things in the world, when a word you have used all of your life is somehow misspelled then just added willy-nilly to a dictionary just because someone could not be bothered to correct the mistake. It's just sad, that with the advent of personal computers, and software having spell checking built in, that people can't even be bothered to click a button to make sure it's all good before making a fool of themselves.
The right spelling is SEPARATE but the way we pronounce it is SEPERATE =)
I just saw "seperate" on a comment on a Flickr photo. It looked wrong to my eyes. To be sure, I asked my 17 year old son "how d'you spell separate?" , without placing undue emphasis on the "a' syllable. "s e p a r a t e", came the answer.I think people who have seen the word "desperate" may be the cause of the confusion?
I disagree with those who think that language rules are a matter of mass usage and nothing else.
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin separatus, past participle of separare, from se- apart + parare to prepare, procure — more at secede, pare
Date: 15th century
From the original Latin separatus, we evolve to the modern separate. English is based on Latin, Germanic, Greek, and some Cyrillic and Arabic. As a living language, many influences have and continue to influence its evolution. However, separatus has never been spelled seperatus. Whenever there is a question as to how a word should be spelled, we can always look to the etymology for guidance. Without rules, chaos exists. There would be no need to teach etymology and ancient roots of language if rules didn't matter. Uneducated people are the only ones who will state that "whatever people do the most prevails". What nonsense. What's next? Redefinition of the words? They mean whatever most people statistically say they mean? Pizza means hamburger now because everyone accepts it? Bullshit.
Well words change meaning all the time, etymology isn't always that great it helps but it's not perfect never has been never will be.
There are worse things than seperate; then/than mistakes are so common that they should be homonyms these days.
look!...english is not my first language...but i am sure, i swear to GOD i've seen sepErate somewhere...am sure it is with an E :'( h2h2h2h2 :'(
to me, sepErate looks the right one...
sepArate sounds like an illetrate bedouin or thrash american trying to spell...
sepArate doesn't even look english...seperate even looks better!!!!
New and simpler spellings are always being introduced. We use "plow" for "plough" now, and eventually we'll probably use "thru" for "through" and "nite" for "night". British English still spells a lot of words the traditional way, like "draught"... but most Americans looking at that word would think it says "drought" (because we're used to seeing "draft" instead of "draught").
The definitive Correct Spelling is whatever's in the dictionary, and that is mostly a matter of whatever people in your area are using.
I'm also guilty of misspelling that one. But I just realized something reading the posts and working on photoshop with this word...
Many people suggested that "seperate" looks better. Visually it does, I agree, from design perspective the "e" flows much more smoothly to the "t" -- makes a tidy composition. The shape of the "a" in between the "p" and the "t" causes a brief pause; which coincidentally makes conceptual sense considering the meaning of the word.
Just wondering... maybe the common misspelling of this word also has something to the with the Gestalt factor.
Anyway, I'll probably remember to spell it right from now on :)
Did you just start a sentence with 'because'?
How about the death of 'disinterested' or the overuse of 'literally' as an intensifier?
Oh, the humanity!
The horror, the horror...
Oh myGod! Totally...
Someday love will find you
Break those chains that bind you
One night will remind you
How we touched
And went our separate ways
If he ever hurts you
True love won't desert you
You know I still love you
Though we touched
Surely there must be something more important to discuss?
BTW ((I bet you guys hate that don't you?) it means "By the Way" for all you anal etymologists who wish we could all speak in Shakespearean prose and use a dozen words when 1 will do), I got here by searching Google to check how to spell the word correctly. With an 'A' seemed wrong to me, even though that is how I had just typed it.
No flame, just a little pissed on wine and I hate toffs.
cya ;)
Anyone interested in etymology should be fully aware of the follies of linguistic prescriptivism and the fact that phonological, phonemic, spelling and semantic drift are all natural parts of the eternal process of language evolution, which has its roots in neurobiology and will not be stopped by technology or the implementation of rules.
If words didn't change there would be no such thing as etymology.
The fact that Word or other programs doesn't recognize "seperate" or "seperete" is irrelevant. Yes, those spellings are incorrect, but Word and other programs fail to recognize droves of scientific words and neologisms as well. Word processors and dictionaries can never be complete in this day and age, due to the fact that as science and technology advance, new words are constantly being coined for both general use and in various specialized communities.
Additionally, there's nothing wrong with starting a sentence with because. Alot (which, incidentally, is another newly compounded word in the vein of "alright" that teachers stupidly frown upon) of BS rules were forced on me at an early age in school, and I quickly realized that teachers and etymologists didn't create the English language.
We all did, we all do, and we all will (we being any fluent English-speaker, of which there are well over one billion). All of us as a whole are continually crafting this language we call English. The process is continual, and ever-changing. English from several centuries ago is now unreadable. Go look at Beowulf for example.
More recent examples of English, such as Shakespeare's works, are still readable for a modern English-speaker, but doing so is awkward and difficult. English will continue to evolve, and very well may look much different 500 years from now.
While it is true that "plough" has changed into "plow," "draught," and "drought" mean two different things, at least in modern American English. A draught is a drink, usually a liquor or medicinal drink. In British English, it is in the same family as "draft" and "drafty." A drought is a dry period. As is evidenced by the red dotted line beneath "draught" in this window, Firefox does recognize the word, while Word does. This is because "draught" is not a commonly used word today. It may disappear completely in the coming years.
What will happen if, as another commenter suggested, "through becomes "thru," and "night" becomes "nite?" I don't believe that is a wise path. Although I support natural linguistic evolution, I do not support stupidity. "All right" was a natural choice for conversion from phrase to compound word, and "alright" is now widely accepted. Hopefully "a lot" will enjoy acceptance as a "alot" on the same level someday, but I guess it doesn't really matter since "alot" is already in widespread use.
But what about "thru" and "nite?" I don't like the commercial origins and implications of those words. They, and many other such words in use today, echo eerily with Newspeak, Orwell's fictional oversimplification of the English language, which was intentionally engineered to destroy the ability to articulate philosophical and creative concepts, as well as the ability to voice dissent. Newspeak made liberal use of atrocious words such as "gooder," and doubleplusgood." I personally don't want to see language go down that path, for aesthetic as well as cultural concerns.
*Firefox does not
hahaha. i agree with everyone. i dont think the spelling looks all that correct when its "separate" but as the smart person said "etymology" is a big part of language. and also i dont think we should be having this dispute over the miss spelling of a word,it's rather idiotic. and nice analogy about the pizza and burgers. hah.
good god, i can't believe this what i'm reading, because who has the time to debate such tripe. Obviously me as i'm commenting..... I'm going to bed and i won't loose any sleep over this althouugh i do pride myself on my spelling, i did get this wrong.... anyway, beer then bed.
i spelt "lose" wrong... What a nob! i'll hang my head i shame
We debate such "tripe" because it is intellectually stimulating and interesting to us. It may also be more important than you realize.
My thoughts on the matter: "Damn, I'd better sepArpate those two idiots"! Or, "my home has four sepErate bedrooms. Are ya'll all that dumbed down by blogging? P.S I never blog.
Semantics? Too-mah-toe or too-may-toe? Depending on geographic locations, dialects affect resultant spellings, don't they? My pet irritation is people pronouncing contractions incorrectly. Since when did the contraction wouldn't become wood-dent? or wou'ent? or didn't become did-dent or di'ent? Sheesh!
I pronounce it 'sepret', because I'm from Lancashire, and I spell it 'separate', because that's how you spell it. /argument
who cares? its one of them words that everyone is going to spell differantly so why don't we just leave it at that?!
who cares about spelling (" intellectual snobbery has never been more prevalent amongst those who rally around an isolated idea of mental superiority clearly furnished through privileged education")...is perfect grammar and tonality key to obtaining validity?... [ in my mind this sheds light on an egocentric focus on our self presentation ... the modern youth as far as i can see is soo "advanced" as too believe that spelling and grammer are insight into a persons intellect... how terribly confining... To me the most enchanting thing about the intellect is that it is not contained by expectation or presentation despite our efforts.. it really is the true measure our potential always shocking even us in it's exprsesivity
Good god, there are people here arguing for separate who go on to spell recognise with a 'z'! Bloody daft yanks, your whole culture is a result of poorly remembered English culture, like someone forgot all the rules to rugby except for the shape of the ball - ship rats escaping poverty who lacked education playing chinese whispers with language and culture. And you claim to be English speaking, you give English a bad name.... :D
hellp..i dont get it it is with an "a" or an "e" ? i spell it with an E but my madre said i was wrong soo idk
Just saw "seperate" used in today's online edition of the New York Times. I am appalled.
Sloppy writing reflects sloppy thinking. Even worse is the common use of conjunctions for starting sentences. And some seem to think its okay. But I don't think so.
Simple; if you want to use English use an 'a'. If you want to appear to all as an ill educated, lazy dumbo use an 'e' ! Your call.
What a waste of energy. The nitpickers of the world will always look for ways to put other people down. Your ability to stick rigidly to a certain system doesn't make you any more interesting or likable. As long as you can understand the message, who really cares?
This is great! I used both the correct and incorrect spelling today in IM. Did I just see an Alicia Keys song quoted here? Wow! You gotta love it!
TT: you may want to study up on the history of English culture- YOUR fabulous culture- which is the result of quite a mishmash of different peoples immigrating to the British isles. Golly, it's almost like how the United States' culture came to be!
Implying that American culture is based entirely on British culture is absurd and ethnocentric to the extreme. You should educate yourself before you call others "daft".
Oh and one more thing- you're an ass.
Oh My! I, too, ended up on this page attempting to verify the correct spelling. Unfortunately, I verified that I was correct! (see below). However, I let the missive I was constructing languish while I perused this fascinating and strangely compelling debate. I decided that my email - telling the shift supervisor that the strange alarm in question meant he had better check on the device that separates radioactive waste from the river discharge water - could wait. Our entire language is at stake. But, seriously - I'm kidding.
This is one of those few words that I know I spell wrong, every time, so I check them, every time. Alas, I must be capable of some learning reform, because this time I got it right, by myself. I cannot separate my feeling of accomplishment, from my feeling of once again being waylaid by the internet. Yes, I do use a spell checker, but only after I am done writing. I feel if I do not put forth the effort to learn how to do it right in the first place, I will be dependant on a crutch for the rest of my journey. - But, I DO cheat on the words I know I cannot spell.
Thank you everyone for this brief, interesting, side-trip during my daily grind.
LOL ..I agree MikeC..better things to do but this was kinda interesting..
**Justabrowser** -- started the etymology thread, forgot to include the gaelic and french influences on our language. ALso forgot to point out that part of the etymology of the English laguage IS Shakespeare, meaning, when he needed a new word, he 'made it up'..true he was a linguist and followed rules in his word-making, but make em up he did. Language is living, does evolve and change..BUT adding words to a dictionary because people can't be bothered to spell them right is wrong..spelling suggests..ahh never mind, ..
"The English language had deteriorated into a hybrid of hillbilly, valleygirl, inner-city slang and various grunts."..[but someone who speaks proper English (non-Ameicanized) sounds,] "..pompous and faggy to them."
AHHH..maybe THAT is the answer,,Separate the forms of English..American English and Proper English .. I mean the way I see it, Americans took the English language, dropped the accent, bastardized many words, and continue to steal and bastardize words from many other languages.
Croissant is NOT cresent, paté is NOT pate, sauna is NOT sawNa (it IS **s-ou[as in sour]-na**)---whats really funny is look up sour in a dictionary (www.merriam-webster.com/.../sour) and the suggested pronounciation of the ou sound is described using au... just goes to show, even if ya spell it right, doesn't mean they will say it correct.
"'Comin' up next on The Violence Channel: An all-new 'Ow, My Balls!'" ...
"The years passed, mankind became stupider at a frightening rate. Some had high hopes the genetic engineering would correct this trend in evolution, but sadly the greatest minds and resources where focused on conquering hair loss and prolonging erections. "
--(quotes from 'Idiocracy')
It's spelled separate, who cares if it "looks better" to use an "e".
must commend Mr. Freudenberg on prompting this utterly fascinating waste of time...
nothing really to add to the discussion, just my opinion...
At the end of the day, language is about conveying a concept to somebody else, therefore, as long as you know what the person was getting at, it has performed its task correctly.
Next we'll be saying knife and knee should be spelt without the 'K' because it doesn't look right...
English=sucks, some examples Stomach, scissors, knight,etc. just a few. Try reading a book with a young child and then you will really see how hard English is, they say it how they see it and you realize too many extra letters. Whats up with the extra letters?? And I still think seperate is the way!!!!or maybe divide!!!!! hmmmmm.
It's quite worrying when you go to clairfy this with your English teacher, and she tells you both are words.
separate: to split into two etc. - the act
seperate: two different things etc. - the result
I've been doing this for years (and I probably will continue to, it's a habit I've gotten into)
This has been something that has bugged me for awhile too.
I'm seeing seperate identified as a misspelling by some posters.
My father was career English teacher and so was I.
I was taught the difference between seperate and separate in school (60's & 70's). They were definitely two different words with distinct spellings (as Misinformed stated). 'Separate' became the lone spelling sometime in 80's and 'seperate' started being listed as an "archaic" spelling. So now 'separate' covers both meanings. It really annoyed me for awhile because I had always been so careful to use the correct spelling for each of the two meanings. A few years ago I finally caved and started using 'separate' exclusively
Astral - nobody suggested that draught and drought have the same meaning. I think if you read the post you are commenting on, you will find that to be the case. Tripe, I say.
Seperate was a word and if you rely on Microsoft word for your spell check I guess colour isn't a word either..=)..I understand people are lazy and don't want to confuse things or learn proper usage of the language they speak but I learnt it in school along with the difference between practice and practise and don't understand what is so difficult about it..I mean they are two different words and describe and do different things so shouldn't they be spelt differently? I apparently have five words with red lines underneath and yet nothing is wrong but this is probably an american english, oh and apparently I need to capitalize American and English otherwise they are incorrect..haha
I just found out that "seperate" is not in the dictionary any more, that it is "separate" only now...but it used to be that "seperate" and "separate" were two different words...one an adjective and one a verb. For example, "we went our seperate ways", we decided to "separate". I can't believe they took it out...I am befuddled...and online for confirmation...yep it's true.
After banging my head on the desk for even reading through this page, I have to agree with g00mba way up there ^
I had a laugh thinking of Idiocracy and the Brits picking on us Yanks for bastardizing their English. Sorry, but Jason's post looks odd with "spelt" and "learnt" versus spelled and learned. Is Jason British or Australian? ;)
they should not have separated seperate and separate, because separate and seperate DO have seperate meanings!
100 years from now, it'll be changed to "difrunt"
Separate (Verb) - to unjoin, to divide
Seperate (Noun) - unjoined, not united
Early in this thread someone was convinced that seperate was not a word as it was not recognised by Word or Spell. That was because they are American programs and the USA has a lot of different spellings to the English. The discussion above about the two spellings relating to different meanings of the word is correct, and of course, they are pronounced differently.
The second spelling has not been added to a dictionary because of common use. Both words have been there since heaven knows when.
George Orwell predicted that this would happen many decades ago. Read his excellent essay 'Politics and the English Language' for his opinion on the deterioration of the English language. It is clear that we are now being controlled by the language we use, not using it as tools.
Soon we will deteriorate into Newspeak...
Seperate :
This is one of the few words that is actually wrongly spelled but IMO deserves to replace the correct version because of the way it's pronounced. Given a vote I think most English speakers would prefer Seperate.
<a href="www.lexiology.com/.../a> is one of top 10 most confused words in Lexiology Dictionary.
I think seperate should become a word, with a distinct meaning than separate. Separate would be the verb, seperate the adjective.
Just because the status quo (the dictionary) states one thing does not mean it needs to stay that way forever. If that were the case we would not even be using stone tools yet or cooking our food. Hell, life would not exist. Evolution (of words, life and everything) is perfectly natural. Preferably evolution in a forward direction ;
mtm
If I say "SepArate these two items." I pronounce the word the way I spell it, sep-A-rate. If I then say "These two items are in separate catagories.", I pronounce it sep-Er-at. This is probably part of the cause of the spelling confusion. Some people are despErate to justify their misspellings.